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Roland MC808 vs. JMJ debate


Post Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:07 pm
Jon


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Antigoon wrote:OK, here's me throwing a baseballbat in the chickencage.

One thing here makes me shake my head a lot.

So what if JMJ used presets on his new album, why is it a problem for so many PPL here?

Why do they come up with all sorts of lame excuses to defend it? Especialy the "defend it" part. Some of you make up the most rediculess story about him being involved in creating those sounds etc... In essence you're saying the most obvious thing is not OK, you're not willing to accept that JMJ just pushed a button to make an album (a good album IMO)

Why is it so hard for many of you to accept the obvious? Why not just except it and enjoy the music?

Explain this to me why this would not be OK?
Were use to seeing and knowing that JMJ in the past sat down, took time out and created complex and simple patterns from scratch. But that was yesteryear. Today it's a lot more easy for musicians to sit down, trawl through (minimum) dozens and (maximum) hundreds of preset patterns taht are already a complete section of track waiting to be used. With the T&T album & MC-808, no one is 100% certain to what came first - the album or the MC-808. Yes, we can only speculate until we hear it directly from the horses mouth (so to speak). So until then, it's all guess work based on what evidence has been brought forward - so far. It's a musical jigsaw puzzle. It certainly would be nice if Jarre addressed this matter, but until then, if it will ever happen, back to speculating.

If it turns out that JMJ took the time to create for Roland for what ever deal he had with them, and made these patterns, great, a synth with direct Jarre sounds already and waiting to be brought. If Jarre didn't create these patterns and just took them from the 808, not much of a big deal to some as most musicians do this anyway, plus that's what they are there for - to be used. But if it's the latter, then the problem that some people have is that Jarre has become lazy in his old age. He took the easy option. That's not a crime, but it may well have been to those who look up to Jarre and admire his "creative" skills that has made him a house old name for the past 30+ years.

Does this have the same feeling for those who follow 'Kraftwerk'? (just a example). That stage when they first started on stage using hardware synths, then turned to software. Some may like that move, others may not. It's a divided opinion of which we are all entitled too.

In laymans terms, music has changed a great deal. It's a lot more easy to create tracks today than it was 20 years ago. How many synths 20 years ago had that option of producing a near full track just by pressing a key/button, unlike those which you can walk into a music store and take off the shelf today.

Jarre had a bash at the "dance" circuit. T&T is not to every Jarre fans liking. But that's not the end of the world. He hasn't said "this is going to be my last album - ever!". You learn from your lessons, and Jarre has already commented how poorly the album has been received, so he's learning his lessons. He's (hopefully) ready to move onto pastures new and maybe, just maybe, go back to the style we are all familiar with - soundscaping Jarre. Then again he may just continue with the dance styles until he gets it right - with the fans and media.

In Jarres 40 years of making music, he can't get it right every time. The T&T album, though it has it's good points and bad points, basically it was a glitch in his long established music career. Most of us will remember the T&T album as the "Oh, that album". Personally I think it's a catchy album. Not Jarre as we know him, but atleast he had a bash at something new. Something for his CV.
Jarre concerts attended - Destination Docklands 1988 - Paris La Defense 1990 - Europe In Concert 1993 (Manchester & London) - Oxygene Tour 1997 (Birmingham)

"A group of men and woman entered the laboratory one month ago to live in a smell free world. Body odour, sweaty arms pits and smelly feet are to create the energy to survive. A total mystery surrounds this experiment, and it's project code name: B.O and Smell'i "
Post Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:50 pm
Kanta
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Elf wrote:
Equinoxe5 wrote:You learn from your lessons, and Jarre has already commented how poorly the album has been received
He has? Where?
It's on this site. I believe it was said during a recent interview/autograph session. I can't recall what thread it was in, other than it was over in the T&T section of this site. Maybe someone else can chime in.
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Concerts attended:
Théâtre Marigny, Paris - 2007
Symphony Hall, Birmingham - 2008
RAH, London - 2008
Wembley Arena, London - 2009
NIA, Birmingham - 2009
POP Bercy, Paris - 2010
NIA, Birmingham - 2010
O2 Arena, London - 2010
Zénith Aréna, Lille - 2010
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Post Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:00 pm
Jon


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Kanta wrote:
Equinoxe5 wrote:
Elf wrote: He has? Where?
It's on this site. I believe it was said during a recent interview/autograph session. I can't recall what thread it was in, other than it was over in the T&T section of this site. Maybe someone else can chime in.
It was mentioned here. :P
Thanks Kanta :bravo:
Jarre concerts attended - Destination Docklands 1988 - Paris La Defense 1990 - Europe In Concert 1993 (Manchester & London) - Oxygene Tour 1997 (Birmingham)

"A group of men and woman entered the laboratory one month ago to live in a smell free world. Body odour, sweaty arms pits and smelly feet are to create the energy to survive. A total mystery surrounds this experiment, and it's project code name: B.O and Smell'i "
Post Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:28 pm
Pete


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Nico_Noyau wrote:...But a track is not only composed of rhythm, there are additional parts ! ...
Nico is absolutely right.

What makes me really angry is that some people put their nose into this thread related to a musical instrument and used this to proclaim a crusade against the T&T album elsewhere; they didn't like the album and they just needed something to try to discredit it; many of them probably don't even know what a recording studio is, what is pre-production, production and mastering. What are the differences between melodic lines, chords and arrangements. What collaborations with other artists are.
If they know that, they pretend to ignore it to endorse their obsession against this album.

I also wonder if those people purchased the album or just got it in some less conventional way.
If they purchased the album, they could see that Tim Hufken is credited in the album for "Groove Box special programming and artistic collaboration: Groove Box MC808 and Sonar Sequencer";
and it seems pretty evident that the special programming is Tim's own work, done for the T&T pre-production, that ended also on the definitive MC-808 memory, being Tim a MC-808 sound designer and pattern creator.

I also don't understand why those people waste so much time in this game. If I purchase an album I don't like, I simply put it aside and maybe listen to it after some time; I don't waste my time going onto forums spamming accusations to discredit an artist. They show their bad attitude.
I think those persons would have better times enjoying the summer, listening to what they like, finding a girlfriend to free their hands from the computer and from their little d**k! 8)

P.
Post Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:31 pm
Nico_Noyau
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I 100% agree with you Pete :lol:
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Théâtre Marigny, Paris [France] - 15/12/2007
<2010> Marseille [France] - 20/03/2010
Monaco - 01/07/2011
Arènes de Nîmes – 14/07/2016
Post Posted Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:33 pm
Jarp2600


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I second that! 8)
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Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:51 am
GeeJee
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Finally the discussion took a mature turn. I can agree with both Pete and Elf, who made clear that at least there is no way that JM used presets off this machine, but he had them specially programmed for him to use on his album. And that very last sentence is what worries me. Why? Because too much ended up on the actual MC808, and it's pretty obvious that most of that stuff is thus made up/composed by Tim, which is fine, because he's one hell of a creative artist, no doubt about that, but the album sleeve states JEAN MICHEL JARRE, who used to do much more than lean on somebody elses effort. That's my point. Comprende?
:mrgreen:
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:42 am
moviemaker


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GeeJee wrote:Finally the discussion took a mature turn. I can agree with both Pete and Elf, who made clear that at least there is no way that JM used presets off this machine, but he had them specially programmed for him to use on his album. And that very last sentence is what worries me. Why? Because too much ended up on the actual MC808, and it's pretty obvious that most of that stuff is thus made up/composed by Tim, which is fine, because he's one hell of a creative artist, no doubt about that, but the album sleeve states JEAN MICHEL JARRE, who used to do much more than lean on somebody elses effort. That's my point. Comprende?
Pete makes sense and Elf makes a very reasonable argument for at least admiring an artist's work with a critical eye...

Personally,I really dig Teo & Tea (probably one of the few who do) and I love what the new MC808 can do (and what it allowed Jarre to work with going in a different direction for once). I will probably get flamed, but I was getting a little tired of the same old Jarre and was hoping for something like Bourges.. but at least it was not classic Jarre. For better or worse I am glad Jarre chose to at least try something different and for that he will always have my admiration and support...

But no matter how much I like this album, or have admiration of Jarre, GeeJee really hit the nail on the head. No matter what it is, Classic Jarre, techno, etc. I want it to be predominately from Jean Michel's creative well. But maybe this time he is like a film director, he just directed someone else's script.

David Lynch once told me: "If you make something that is truly yours and from the heart and you fail, you fail once and you can go on... but if you make something that wasn't originally yours to begin with and you fail, then you fail twice, and when that happens you may never recover..."

--David was talking about Dune, a film so out of left field for him but it could almost apply here as well.
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:25 am
Antigoon

who made clear that at least there is no way that JM used presets off this machine, but he had them specially programmed for him to use on his album.
OMG, did you just become a "jarre-apologist" ???

Why is there no way he used presets? And why should it be a problem? Those presets are made to be used, why shouldn't JMJ use them?

Why is it a problem accepting the obvious??
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:17 am
Jakob BC
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One of the T&T patterns is still said to have been made by this Kilian who was also a pattern programmer for the MC808, so not all is Tim Hüfken. However this topic is starting to be anoying. Why not just say OK and go on. We have two conclutions no one can answer for now. Either the factory patterns have been used for T&T, or T&T patterns have been used as factory presets.
I guess we all rather want the last conclution to be the right and optimism is also better than all the hate you can find about it, and you have come up with good reasons for. We just can't say what is right by now :wink:
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:22 am
Finaero


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What really matters is where did the "combination of Synths, Orchestras and vocals, but not like Metamorphoses" disappear? :roll: :P
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:27 am
Nico_Noyau
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Well, that's exactly the description of Touch To Remember ;)
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Robert Dugenou

Attended :
Teo&Tea showcase in Cannes [France] - 20/05/2007
Théâtre Marigny, Paris [France] - 15/12/2007
<2010> Marseille [France] - 20/03/2010
Monaco - 01/07/2011
Arènes de Nîmes – 14/07/2016
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:18 am
Jon


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If one thing has been learned from all of this, then it's this - Roland sales of the MC-808 have probably just gone up. Everyone's a winner.
Jarre concerts attended - Destination Docklands 1988 - Paris La Defense 1990 - Europe In Concert 1993 (Manchester & London) - Oxygene Tour 1997 (Birmingham)

"A group of men and woman entered the laboratory one month ago to live in a smell free world. Body odour, sweaty arms pits and smelly feet are to create the energy to survive. A total mystery surrounds this experiment, and it's project code name: B.O and Smell'i "
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:42 am
GeeJee
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Antigoon wrote:
who made clear that at least there is no way that JM used presets off this machine, but he had them specially programmed for him to use on his album.
OMG, did you just become a "jarre-apologist" ???

Why is there no way he used presets? And why should it be a problem? Those presets are made to be used, why shouldn't JMJ use them?

Why is it a problem accepting the obvious??
Presets are fine. Nothing wrong with them.
But this aren't presets like that, they're complete combinations that are almost similar to the tracks themselves, so he'd better had them programmed specially for him to use. If not, I find it rather lousy to pick such major parts off one machine and add rather minor of his own stuff. Then if you don't see who's an "apologist" here... you are the one saying I should accept whatever the man does. That's a little naive I'd say. I'm only creating one very condition under which the use of presets to this extend would be acceptable for me.

Anyway - I don't like this thread at all. My general opinion about the album is that JM has done much better in the past, and the use of presets / rely that much on collaborators doesn't make it look any better.
:mrgreen:
Post Posted Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:44 am
Finaero


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That and most of this thread is debate instead of actual opinions and such of the machine :P







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