Blah Blah Cafe, the Jean-Michel Jarre forum

[Nico_Noyau]

Hello !!

I asked me (but didn't have an answer) :
- What's the difference beteween a mixer and a patchbay ?
- Behringer Ultrapatch Pro PX2000, what can it do that a mixer can't do ?
- Mixer : how to choose them and why is it so expensive ?
- A good mixer rackable under 100€, only in dreams ?
- Behringer ULTRALINK PRO MX882 : a real mixer ?
- Compressor, enhancer, virtualizer and so on : the utility ?

Thanks a lot to enlight my lantern !!!
Regards,
Nicolas

[synthx]

Hi Nic,

Mixer = Mixes several sources into stereo or mono channel, you have volume, tone & effects control on each channel.

Patchbay = A rack unit that has a number of phonejacks on the back of the unit and also on the front. Does not mix signals like a mixer. A patchbay is used when you want easy access to all signals in a studio. You can connect all your synths, effects or whatever to the back inputs of the patchbay and easily connect whatever machines you want through the phonejacks on the front.

Behringer Ultrapatch Pro PX2000 = Read above.

Mixer, what to choose = Depends on what you´re after. If you are just sitting home composing coverversions of synth songs go for secondhand units (Soundcraft or Mackie). If you want new stuff go for Behringer or Alto. a Digital mixer might be just the thing you´re looking for if you´re going to have a couple of synths and maybe some other sources.

Mixer under 100 Euro. look at the secondhandmarket. But do not expect to get pro stuff.

Behringer Ultralink Pro = Never heard of, since I personally dislike behringer.

Compressor = Yeah, you might add one of those. Don´t ask me which one as this is really a jungle. Some like modern stuff others prefer the old stuff.

For a compact all in one tool I would recomend looking at some finalizer processors, there are a few to choose from. These are used to do the final master.

And you might want to invest in a multieffects processor for reverbs and delays. Alesis Quadraverbs are cheap.

The other alternative is to get mixer/effects/processors in form of a audiocard for your computer. Creamware Pulsar 2 isn´t that expensive if you find it on the secondhand market. Add to that an ADAT interface or two (Alesis AI3) and you´ll have everything you need. You can record in 96Khz @ 24bit which is very good. In the creamware package you also get a lot of synthesizers and they sound much better than VSTi´s.

Hello !!
I asked me (but didn't have an answer) :
- What's the difference beteween a mixer and a patchbay ?
- Behringer Ultrapatch Pro PX2000, what can it do that a mixer can't do ?
- Mixer : how to choose them and why is it so expensive ?
- A good mixer rackable under 100€, only in dreams ?
- Behringer ULTRALINK PRO MX882 : a real mixer ?
- Compressor, enhancer, virtualizer and so on : the utility ?
Thanks a lot to enlight my lantern !!!
Regards,
Nicolas

[jeremy]

- Compressor, enhancer, virtualizer and so on : the utility?

- Compressor: it "compresses" the sound over a certain level (treshold, in dB) to a certain ratio (how much it is compressed) and then allows to make the music sound louder by controling the gain. It's useful for drum tracks, vocal tracks, and then overall mix. Of course it can be used for guitars, bass, etc as well. Better results can be achieved by compressing a little bit within the mix and then a little bit again on the overal mix, rather than compressing a lot at the end. The final result is that there will be less difference between the quiet and loud parts of a song. It's interesting when you listen to music and have a background noise (listening in a car for example), so you still hear something when it's meant to be quieter.

- Enhancer: it allows you to enlarge the audio spectrum in the lowest and highest frequencies. I think (not sure) it adds some higher and lower harmonics (see sound techniques to learn more about harmonics).

- Virtualizer: I believe it's just the name given by Behringer to some of their multi-FX units.

Voilà! If you want more details in French, you can ask me in PM.

[AMR]

Hello !!

I asked me (but didn't have an answer) :
- What's the difference beteween a mixer and a patchbay ?
- Behringer Ultrapatch Pro PX2000, what can it do that a mixer can't do ?
- Mixer : how to choose them and why is it so expensive ?
- A good mixer rackable under 100€, only in dreams ?
- Behringer ULTRALINK PRO MX882 : a real mixer ?
- Compressor, enhancer, virtualizer and so on : the utility ?

Thanks a lot to enlight my lantern !!!
Regards,
Nicolas

Let's improvise on this one...

Perhaps it's easier to go the other way around, which is you saying what you want. Here's the "dummie" version, which I'm a fan of:

Mixer: mixes a lot of things and you hear all in your two speakers

Patchbay: keep those damn cords of the carpet and organized (not that I care)

Pro PX2000: Keeps cable tidy, routes rather than mixes

How to choose a mixer? Extreme low noise, lots of channels, a few buses (where you mix to), return channels (to insert effects), good individual metering (p-r-e-c-i-s-e), good individual EQ, mutes, solos, monitoring, preferably automated motorized faders and surround output and computer link and high-precision digital, with MIDI, and so on... and you see why they are so expensive...

Good rackable mixer under 100 euro?
Why rackable?... A mixer is suposed to be on a console... though some are in racks, I give you that... Still, it's possible if you aim like only four mono channels or something.

PRO MX882: Yes, but it mixes and splittes signals without messing much with them, it's more of a conceptual signal "linker" than a mixer (but in english, that's a mixer)

- Compressor, enhancer, virtualizer and so on : the utility ?

Compressor: makes things louder, even, and your mix more punchy and solid

Enhancer: adds brightness and life to your sound

Virtualizer: nice marketing jargon by Behringer to say it's a creator of "virtual" sound-space sculpting mambo-jumbo, this due to their recognized (and warm) high-quality high-resolution data modelling algorythms.

(How can anyone not like Behringer?)

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com

[Nico_Noyau]

Wahow, thanks a lot for your very complete answers, synthx, Jeremy and Alvaro

So now, thanks to you, I understand more why mixers are sooo expensive
So the patchbay is like a "hub" to plug all synths into one OUT ? I can't mix each tracks separately, no ?

good individual metering (p-r-e-c-i-s-e),

yes, that's a big problem for me at the moment when I make a track on my software (100% virtual) : sound is plate, withdraw, not "living" (dead?)

Why rackable?... A mixer is suposed to be on a console...

only because of the lack of space (or maybe under my bed ?)

I didn't understand the difference between PRO MX882 and mixer

Ok, so can the compressor "enlive" my sound ? ah, no, it's the enhancer role, ok, but the compressor can do it too ?
So the Virtualizer is a creation of Behringer without any utility ?

So, as I understood, an enhancer is the most important effect of an Home Studio and the Compressor can be usefull too if there is background tracks, is it ?

For a compact all in one tool I would recomend looking at some finalizer processors, there are a few to choose from. These are used to do the final master.

Ok, I'll look what it is

And you might want to invest in a multieffects processor for reverbs and delays. Alesis Quadraverbs are cheap.

Ok, I'll try to find some demos, and what do you think about mixer with included effects ?

The other alternative is to get mixer/effects/processors in form of a audiocard for your computer

I have a M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, can it do it ?

Add to that an ADAT interface or two (Alesis AI3) and you´ll have everything you need.

ADAT ? what's that ? is it to record and to put after a mixer like a recorder ?

Perhaps it's easier to go the other way around, which is you saying what you want.

Hum, ok, I just want to record/play at the same time on my Roland D50 and on the Roland JP8000 I'll buy soon. But I'll buy other synth this year, like a sampler from Akai (S1000, S1100 or S2000), why not a JD800, maybe an Eminent if I find one and so on so I don't want to change my mixer each time
I would like to record all of these synths into an ADAT (as synthx said) or into my computer with Goldwave or SoundForge (or another)
And (maybe it's not possible), I would like to mix physical synths with virtual synths, to use my computer as sequencer for all synths (here is the use of the Roland A880)

Thanks again to have helped me a lot
Regards,
Nicolas

[Equinoxe]

My 2 cents worth....


The most important aspect of your studio should be the Monitoring solution,no amount of FX or modulation will compensate for poor mixing,and this will only be paramount if you have a decent set of speakers...you may have the best synths in the world but if your not hearing a good range of frequencies this will make the difference between an amatuer sound and a mix a pro would be proud of,you cant replace mixing ability with FX


On the FX side of things,it isn't essential to have Enhancers or Compressors and having them will not make you sound professional,just because someone says a compressor will give you this effect or an enhancer will enhance your music,becuase unless you know how to use them properly you wont get any decent sounding results from them,so don't replace knowledge with Gadgets or you'll fall flat on your face when it comes to trying to get a polished sound...
an enhancer is not meant to "Enhance" a poor mix it will onyl add to the Mush,or givign a track more compression will not make it louder,you have to balance the tracks individually before its able to compress to make anything musically pleasing compressors are also useful for sustaining guitars,there not just an End mix modulation...
If you intend to do Synth based music,then a Compressor isnt an essential tool,i only use compression on vocals and some drum tracks,but that is only as i need them for specific needs,i still wont use a compressor on an overall mix unless i really feel it needs it,if you mix tracks well and use the correct sound choice a little EQ to cut and shape tracks may all be thtas needed...


on the Mixer side....Buy as many Inputs as you can afford,because at a later date you may upgrade instruments and need more inputs,so its a case of buying the biggest mixer you can,cos chances are as your setup grows your mixer will be obsolete and need upgrading too,I have a total of 88 inputs across 2 32 channel mixers and 2 DAWS.this gives me around 6 spare channels with all the gear plugged in...

Patchbays are not essential unless you have lots of Outboard devices or a minimal mixer input channels and more gear outputs than can be physically plugged into the mixer console,the patchbay is really a way of keeping everything together without having to repatch your mixer each time,you just basically bring everything into the patchbay and the outs routed your devices/Mixer and use the front panel of the patchbay to interconnect devices from the front panel using patch cables...

If you have enough inputs channels and no intension of unplugging everything all the time for routing purposes then you don't really need a patchbay,many decent mixers will have Auxillary sends which you can use to patch external FX across your inputs or some even have Channel inserts,if you intend to do multitrack work its worth buying a mixer with a couple of output busses to so you can route seperate groups of instruments to external fx or multirack recorders.,the mixers i have are 32 channel with 8 busses and mixdown into a stereo pair,the 8 busses are routed to an external multitrack and also i have a few Aux sends and returns patched into the FX of the Daws so i can process other channels too if need be

I dont have any external FX devices,I dont see the point really when i tend to most of the processing between the DAWS and PC,so Between them they give me more flexibility than 1 single FX box,plus the sound don't lose signal quality along loads of length of cable as everything stays in the digital domain.

Behringer Equipment is good for the most of it,but they have in the past gotten a bad name for unreliability
Thats the luck of the draw I'm afraid,there known for making cheap and cheerful gear,but it doesnt mean that everything they make is crap.I have 2 MX3282A mixers and 2 PX2000 pathcbays,never had any problems with anything.....
Behringer are too me as good as any other manufacturer,you might spend 3K on a mackie desk,but it wont make you anymore a pro engineer than a Behringer £500 mixer would,its how you use it and knowing how to get the best out of it....

when choosing a mixer its best to add up all the number of outputs you have from your synths and then double that number and this should be the amount of inputs your mixer should have,never buy a mixer with just enough inputs cos as i've said your more likley to add gear as you grow...buying a big enough mixer that you can afford now will save you XX amount cash in the future..

If you intend to to do processing on the PC,then External FX are really important,you can get yourself some decent plugins for the cost of a hardware unit....

[Robi]

Dear Noyau!

I don't know at all, but i really would like to help you!

[synthx]

So now, thanks to you, I understand more why mixers are sooo expensive So the patchbay is like a "hub" to plug all synths into one OUT ? I can't mix each tracks separately, no ?

Not really, Patchbays are the chosen tool for lazy people You can not sum several inputs into one output on a patchbay. A patchbay is used to have easy access to all ins and outs in a studio. Often in big studios you will see a patchbay on the right side of the mixing console. Imagine having 30 effects units and 35 soundsources, but on the mixer you only have room for say 24 of these. In this case it is easier to have everything connected to the patchbay and simply patch in the Effects or synthesizers you want to use to the 24 channels of the mixer. When you think about Patchbays think about the old telephone switchboards where a friendly woman would tell you to hold as she connected the call to the person you wanted to speak to (I mean the old kind of switchboards with lots of phonejacks and lots of cables).

Ok, I'll try to find some demos, and what do you think about mixer with included effects ?"

I have not tested any mixers with internal effects, but I guess some of the higher end digital mixers are OK. It really depends on what you want to do. If you´re investing in these things to do covers of JMJs music I think cheaper equipment is the way to go. If you however wish to start producing something for the commercial market I would choose higher end products than Behringer or Alto.

I have a M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, can it do it ?

I downloaded the PDF manual for your audiocard and it seems you have 4 digital inputs through S/PDIF. To use these you either need to have S/PDIF outs on your synthesizer or an Analog/Digital converter. Your audiocard does have a mini mixer, but I could not find effects such as Reverbs,Delays or compressors and stuff like that. However the 96Khz/24Bit recording quality is good. You could choose to keep that card and use VSTi effects instead. Just record each track dry without effects and apply the effects afterwards to each track in your sequencer program.

ADAT ? what's that ? is it to record and to put after a mixer like a recorder ?

Well ADAT is an old digital taperecorder not used that much these day´s as HD recording has taken over more or less. However the ADAT managed to become an Industry standard. ADAT interfaces often have 8 in/outs analog and translates these 8 in/outs to digital format using lightpipe. My Audiocard has two lightpipe in/outs which makes it possible to record 16 mono channels or 8 stereo channels simultainiously.

In other words the ADAT interfaces are used as A/D converters for my audiocard.

You also need to learn to configure your audio card if you are going to use an external A/D converter. Digital recording requires you to sellect and configure master clock, otherwise you´ll get digital clicks in your recorded audio. But I can explain this when you have decided what to buy and how to setup your studio.

[Nico_Noyau]

Synthx :
Ok, thanks synthx, now I have understood what's a patchbay with your example of the old telephone switch board, only usefull if I have many synths and effects, so not my case

I want to make covers but I want to create my own music and produce it

With my soundcard, I can select "Monitor Mixer", "Patchbay / Router", "Hardware Settings" and "S/PDIF" but I never seen the effects part
I have S/PDIF IN but I have too two RCA IN called H/W IN 1/2 in which I plugged my D50 to record with Goldwave and to add effects after with Synapse Orion or SoundForge

For ADAT : I can use my computer as a recorder instead of an ADAT, won't the quality be better ?

Equin(00)xe :
The Monitoring solution, hum yes, please don't laugh but I use an HomeCinema amp...not the best to do MAO, I know...
So, as you said, I don't need to have effects because I can make it on my computer, I only need to have a little EQ ?

You have 88 inputs on your mixer ?! amazing !!! but yes, I think as you that it's better to buy a mixer with lots of inputs to except when I'll buy more and more synths. But synths use only 2 inputs (R and L), does it exist with more outputs ?

So yes, I don't need a patchbay at all

And I see that I have not enough money to skip my computer so I'll see after for all these external effects I can have for free on the computer

Thanks a lot for your explanations, I see better now

[jeremy]

I agree with Equin(00)xe about the importance of monitoring. It's the most important thing and I didn't know it until recently... Now guess what I'm doing at the moment? I'm recording songs with internal sounds of a SoundBlaster, knowing that I'll manage to make it sound good with a correct mixing thanks to studio monitors. So don't neglect monitoring.

Now for mixers with built in effects, you'd better avoid them. They will be more expensive than the same without FX, and you won't want to record your audio tracks with FX anyway, you'd rather record them "dry" and add the FX in your computer. So use FX plug ins. Those mixers actually are very interesting for someone who uses some analog synths on stage and needs to sub-mix them and add some reverb or delay.

In my opinion you can almost do what you want to do without buying anything else.

Do you have something else than the D-50 to record?

[synthx]

I want to make covers but I want to create my own music and produce it

Ok, in this case I would recomend to keep the audiocard you have now and invest money in a better A/D converter for the S/PDIF input you have on the card. I would not recomend using the phono inputs on your card, rather build your studio arround the S/PDIF inputs and a good quality A/D.

The only reason for having more inputs would be if you need to record several sources at once, like a choir or someone drumming a kit of drums. I often find my self recording stereo tracks instead of 8 channels at once even though I could do it from a technical point of view. So you really do not need more than the 4 channels digital through S/PDIF. And As I said the 96Khz @ 24 Bit is really good. I usualy only record in 48 Khz @ 24 Bit and it sounds crystall clear.

Instead of many input channels you can record your music track by track into a computer based sequencer. All sequencers have an internal mixer which allows you to set the volumes/eq/Insert effects or whatever .... So invest money in a good software sequencer instead of hardware dito.
I think I have seen others have the same audiocard as you have and run Cubase or Logic and it has worked very well.

So for now:

1. Keep your audio card.
2. Invest in a good quality A/D. (see to it that you can record at your audio cards highest recording quality 96Khz@24Bit).
3. Invest in a Software sequencer (Cubase/Nuendo or Logic or Ableton live5 are my rekomendations that you could investigate further).

At a later point I would build an stereo channel analogue racked stack of processors. Classic mic pre-amps, Eq´s, Compressors and so on ... Many people today add just a stereo channel of their favourite analogue processors and run their audio through it to get the colloration of analogue warmth into their recordings. But as I said this is an later investment.

With my soundcard, I can select "Monitor mixer", "Patchbay / Router", "Hardware Settings" and "S/PDIF" but I never seen the effects part

I couldn´t find any information in the PDF that indecated that you would have effects. So this might just be a bunch of cards that have that feature. But never mind, the effects can be added in your software sequencer as well

I have S/PDIF IN but I have too two RCA IN called H/W IN 1/2 in which I plugged my D50 to record with Goldwave and to add effects after with Synapse Orion or SoundForge

Ok, well if you add an A/D to your setup I would recomend to record through the A/D (S/PDIF) rather than through the RCA inputs of the card.
And buy some good quality cables for the D50. Usually RCA type cables are thin and have poor shielding. Thin cables have higher resistance this can result in a thin and distorted audiospectrum. I once installed a new audio system in a church and they had these really thin telephone line like cables for their microphones. I switched one of these to a new thick type mic cable and it did wonders for the audio. With the old cable everybody sounded like those fastspeaking sports commentators seen on film in the 50´s.

For ADAT : I can use my computer as a recorder instead of an ADAT, won't the quality be better ?

Absolutley ! Actually the quality would be the same, but from an economic standpoint you do not need ADAT recorders.

[Nico_Noyau]

Do you have something else than the D-50 to record?

no, only D50 (for now )

Synthx :
1 . For sure I keep my audiocard !!!
2. Ok, I'll try to find a decent one
3. I have already a sequencer software

At a later point I would build an stereo channel analogue racked stack of processors. Classic mic pre-amps, Eq´s, Compressors and so on ... Many people today add just a stereo channel of their favourite analogue processors and run their audio through it to get the colloration of analogue warmth into their recordings. But as I said this is an later investment.

but I have it in virtual, no ?

But never mind, the effects can be added in your software sequencer as well

ekzakly my dear

Absolutley ! Actually the quality would be the same, but from an economic standpoint you do not need ADAT recorders.

so now, I don't need to buy an ADAT ?! Hum, A/D=ADAT, isn't-it ? I'm forgotten

[GeeJee]

A/D can mean a lot of things... Analog/Digital?

As for patchbays, you don't need them if you have such a small setup. They are very usefull when you need to re-route your audio route without the need to crawl on the floor..

As for a mixer, just buy a small and decent one, such as a 8 channel Yamaha. That should do. OK, it's a little more expensive, but it's quality...

[Nico_Noyau]

Hum, yeah, but to buy an Analog/Digital ?
So, no patchbay, I love cables
A 8 channel = 8 mono synths or 4 synths, is it ?

[GeeJee]

8 mono synths or 4 stereo, that's correct

Your audio pci has an A/D converter You only need to use one seperately if you want to use the digital inputs of your audio pci, which would only make sense if you could hear the difference...