Blah Blah Cafe, the Jean-Michel Jarre forum

[SHARPBLUE]

I am not inherantly racist but I do wish the UK Government would not shroud the figures about how many EU migrants are coming to the UK, the strain is starting to show. In Poland as well as the UK. The Polish Government are even trying to encourage Poles to return to their country. And no it's not true, the majority of Polish workers are very good and work extremely hard, what I do have a problem with is there language here in the UK, I have a rudimentary understanding of Polish language and do take offence when I am called an 'English Whore' (Angelskie Kurwa) - England does not owe the Polish a living and we did NOT betray Poland at Yolta.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5255038.stm

apart from that I feel that its a shame we don't live in Gene Roddenberry's universe - yet, but I guess it has to start somewhere.

[Nico_Noyau]

Ok, when I was a little child (some months ago ) I thought the Poland and all these countries of the West Europ were very very poor, they lived in poor houses, without fridge, tv, computer....

But after reading some schoolbooks about history of the Europe, after watching some documetaries on TV, I can say that my opinion changed @360°.
In fact, they are not as poor as I thought, sure some are and some are rich, but their wealth is in their heart, it is not the case at all in France for example...
So I can say now that the stereotype of the Poland is : "kind", "invite".


For France ?
They are not warm at all, they are withdrown into them (for French of big cities like Paris).
If you go more in the south, it will be maybe better but we are not very warm...
Frogs, cheese-which-stinks and what other ?


Ok, if my post was useful, press 1, if it wasn't, press 2

[Ronja]

SHARPBLUE- I wasn't surprised by your post, as I remembered reading some of your thoughts about the situation before. In fact I understand your point. I think when having free market it should be quite simple - immigrant, no matter if he's Pole or somebody else, must show that he has something to offer in the country he's going to: real competences, will to work, idea for his own business. And I think there're Poles who can be needed, f.e. because of being well-educated (I think we have quite high level of education in area of informatic). Unfortunately many people go just because believing that you can get something for free, that jobs are waiting on every street and they're welcome. It's uncomfortable both for your society - as I fully understand that nobody wants to pay for unemployed immigrants, and for mine - as such people creates view on all of us - and we don't have all such an attitude.

If referring to the Polish government - it's truth there's a will to make people deciding to come back, the reason is quite simple - there's now so high level of emmigration here, that Poland is facing the image of future with lack of doctors (nothing strange that they don't want to work for such a payment) and other proffesions needed, future with very old society - as like most countries of West Europe there's a minus birthrate and youths leaving or planning to live country just after finishing studies or even after passing high-school exams. Sad thing that all government can do is saying "go back" on posters, and what is needed is creating the real alternative here.

So the situation isn't nice.

Ok, when I was a little child (some months ago ) I thought the Poland and all these countries of the West Europ were very very poor, they lived in poor houses, without fridge, tv, computer....

Not bad, not bad when considering there're people who ask if they're white bears walking on Polish streets

But good that you're changed your view

But after reading some schoolbooks about history of the Europe, after watching some documetaries on TV, I can say that my opinion changed @360°.

You meant 180º, didn't you?
Or have you come back to old views when meeting dated Ronja writing from her igloo with no fridge and TV on a (borrowed of course, not to spoil the image) computer?

For France ?
They are not warm at all, they are withdrown into them (for French of big cities like Paris).
If you go more in the south, it will be maybe better but we are not very warm...

You seem to be warm enough, my friend
Mr JMJ also doesn't look as a cold_as_ice_person

Frogs, cheese-which-stinks and what other ?

Yeah, such stereotypes function.

French people (especially women) are also said to be very elegant and caring about the look (I heard from people who visited France that there's a big tolerance, people don't mind someone's wearing what he wants). And one more thing is that is hard to communicate in other language than French - even when you start talking with someone in English, after few minutes it'll be French Mrozek's (famous Polish writer's) wife who is from Mexico told in one interview, that she couldn't buy her favourite cigarettes - Malboro - when being in France, as she couldn't pronounced it in a "French" way and the shop-keeper always told "I don't understand you, next person please"


Terribly loooong post again...I'm so sorry

Ronja <pressing 1 >

[Livgivare]

@SHARPBLUE: I think your ideas are showing in Sweden too. And I think it is a real normal thing for all of us "Old" EU countries to feel this way. But sadly I think that this kind of thinking is really what makes EU not work at all. Because you see even if we do not like EU in the way it is today. EU was ment to be an exchange programme of merchendice, services and all other things (exept for crime then and the things that comes with crime). But sadly all "rich" EU countries are building up a feeling towards the "New and poor" EU countries tht makes EU not work at all. And I guess that England has forgot that just a few years back you were (among) the poorest EU country of them all (only beaten by Ireland and maybe Proutgal and Greece).

When I am trying to say that we need to stop thinking that every newcomer is bad for us. Sure we may end up with a little bit of unemplyment. But in the future if we do not take in immigrants to our countries we will lack of people to take care of the old, and more sadly our country will start to slowly cut back on people. You see all EU countries have a birth-rate that is below 2.1 children per woman. That makes all EU countries loosing citizens as we speak. What if we all thought of that for a change and stop making EU to a strong Battle-castle as it looks like now!

Love Leelene

[Equinoxe]

I am not inherantly racist but I do wish the UK Government would not shroud the figures about how many EU migrants are coming to the UK, the strain is starting to show. In Poland as well as the UK. The Polish Government are even trying to encourage Poles to return to their country. And no it's not true, the majority of Polish workers are very good and work extremely hard, what I do have a problem with is there language here in the UK, I have a rudimentary understanding of Polish language and do take offence when I am called an 'English Whore' (Angelskie Kurwa) - England does not owe the Polish a living and we did NOT betray Poland at Yolta.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5255038.stm

apart from that I feel that its a shame we don't live in Gene Roddenberry's universe - yet, but I guess it has to start somewhere.

Its not a case of hiding real figures,its case of saying No F**k off back to your own country,most of which are not fleeing due to persecution or War threats,the UK is a soft target because the govenrment are too ass kissy to human rights Dipsticks,

if these people who fight for Illegals to stay here love them so much ,why dont they go and help them rebuild there lives in there country instead of gaining everywhich way loose to segue them into the UK,I for one am pissed off that as when i come of age as a retiring person who would have paid Tax/NI for most of my working life,i have to filter a huge portion of my earnings into a Pension pot that will be worth sod all come 65,or even later given the Governments restrictions due to mismanagement of the Taxation and investment strategies,i will then have to (if due to Ill health)have to sell my house to pay for care in a home,yet if i came into the country Illegally paid shit all towards the health/Taxation system and claim asylum,i'd be looked after and financially plush for a long time...

Sadly the country is being choked to death,by labour,tax increases fule increases dwindled pension funds high home prices everything you touch gets f**king taxed and even when you die you pay tax if you leave a substantial estate woth over a certain threshhold,the country i feel is on a verge of an uprising by the ordinary Folk who have had just about enough,if it carries on the way things are going this country will be on the verge of a Civil war,and i for one will not mind Joining in....

I hate Illegal Immigrants,and given the chance I'd take the Fucking lot out with a Machine gun,i have no respect for these people who basically do not need to be here.....

If i was the Prime minister I think I'd be assasinated for my Actions and views,but i for one would not mind going down as long as the British People respected me for standing up to foreign policy,the toruble is nowadays theres too much political correctness and worr about upsetting people,the only people the government should be worried about upsetting are the Damn people who live and work and are British Born,everyone esle can go and *beep* themselves if they dont like it then *Beeping* leave

We do not need the EU,we thought 2 worlds wars for our freedom only to try and be reunited with half of the force we were battling for freedom with to win and then surrender to Europe is like accepting defeat or the fight for freedom wasnt worth it,labour want to take that away,Tony blair should go an live in Germany or brussels if he loves them so much..Good riddance.The problem is this country does not need imports,this country used t obe such a thriving country,we were the brunt of Car manufacturing and engineering in general,Mining was fazed out,Oil production fading out,manufacturing slowy being worn away,this country doesnt need to import goods that we can quite clearly make ourselves and years of manufacturing has proved that the Uk has the abillity to survive on its own manufacturing,privatisatiojn of everything has killed that off....You should never import anything that your capable of doing yourselves,thats what kills industry.We dont need no single currency either.Sterling is our heritage,I'm not bothered if it makes transaction easier being one currency,the german economy has shown its a shambles.
take away the pond from the Uk and you may as well kiss goodbye to the majority of working industries in the UK.



the only way you get by in this country is to either not work and claim offf the state or paint your face a slight eastern tanned colour and claim asylum.English people are becoming second to Immgrants in the UK and its about time they *beeped* off...

[GeeJee]

GeeJee - your post was really interesting for me, especially the part about personal experiences

Good.

To say a bit about Sweden - I heard many good things about this counry, what I especially like is attitude in area of law - seems to be very clever in some points, if it's truth what I heard and read, alcohol policy and attitude to family (I mean - to working women and so on).

The negative thing - maybe rather sad than negative - is that people are quite reserved, they like to live their indivisual lives, have problems with interpersonal communication - not that they're rude or something, but that they prefer for example to talk about neutral things, not about what's worrying them.

I watched some documentary about swedish politics on dutch TV and they concluded it looked beautifull on paper, but didn't work AT ALL. I do have that feeling too though, Sweden seems to be very modern when it comes to politics and economy and all that. As for individualism, it's the same in the Netherlands. People are more and more living their own lives, and it is for sure VERY different from what I've seen in eastern europe.....

[Ronja]

I hate Illegal Immigrants,and given the chance I'd take the Fucking lot out with a Machine gun,i have no respect for these people who basically do not need to be here.....

(...) the only people the government should be worried about upsetting are the Damn people who live and work and are British Born,everyone esle can go and *beep* themselves if they dont like it then *Beeping* leave

These words surprised me a little, to be honest...

Hate...? Have you ever experienced what hate is on your own? I think it's too serious word. Word which shouldn't be overused.

I have consciousness that there's a problem with immigration (although it has positive sites too IMHO, some were shown in Leelene's post) and as I said before - I understand British (and other nations, as yours country is not the only one where people immigrates) anger because of situation going out of control, although I'm from country which people rather leave than enter. But I also understand people wanting chance for better life, people who see this chance in other countries. To be clear - I don't accept the attitude like "I'll go and live for their money" - I'm against making circumstances when people prefer to live from the social help than to work - it's something which kills economy IMHO (I have very liberal views). However no all immigrants are like that and that's unfair to put them in the one category.

And if we start to dig into history...situation won't look so simple -at first we could ask question who is to blame for the current shape of - let's say - Africa, who was exploiting this continent for years, who lead to the situation when people want to escape from there. We can also ask who needed hands to work some time ago, then welcomed immigrants with open arms and now, when facing problems with them is trying to make impression that it was mercy to open borders for them. Which's hipocrysy, as it was no idealism, it was cold calculation. (I'm not talking only about Britain but also about other countries with high percentage of immigrants in the society).

I don't want to dig into history as I am not the suitable person to make judgements about some events - I even don't have knowledge wide enough, I'm not a historic. I'm just trying to say that's not so simple and making segregations like: "We, great Brits, the only deserving for the government's care" and "these *beep* lazy immigrants" isn't the best thing to do. I think it's much more constructive to think now about ways to create relations with these all immigrants who already are in Britain - and won't disappear in a second just because you wish it was so.

[Equinoxe]

I'm not saying i have a right over an immigrant,all i ask for is fair justice,we have Illegal immigrants coming into this country for all sorts of reasons,most claim politic asylum,others claim they are at threat from persucution,at the end of the day most of they need not be here,they are a drain to society,financially and morally,ask most UK citizens if they'dd happily welcome Immigrants in ther community and most would say no.

You see you work all your life,you contribute to the health system no matter whats shaped size colour creed background,how would you feel if for instance i claimed political asylum in Poland and sponged off your contributions to taxation and then never gave a penny in return,for most of the stay i was here,then at the end of your working life,You although you had contributed to tax and education/Health welfare state you were nto entitled to a pension fund to see you out into your senior years because the govenrment had not enough investment in your tax the deducted because they have to pay for the Upkeep of these so called Asylum seekers,how would you feel that you are not entitled to a penny yet you paid 25% of your income to support such a state welfare??????

In most cases Asylum seekers need not be here,We (the UK) are not the first safe country they trek across,so why do they make that elusive journey here???I'll tell you why..........because the government are too *beeping* soft to tell them to Piss off,instead they upset the applecart by telling the British taxpayers than in order to keep the Immigrant here they need to rais there taxes,yes an extra buck or two from the British civil workers that they didnt want to contribute to such an ecomonic drain in the first place,how would that make you feel??????

you cant blame slavery for such situations,slavery was a form of work induced labour,Most Illegal immigrants have no such desire to work,well who can blame them when the government will happily give them a place to live and free welfare payments,yet those of us who pay taxation are entitled to nothing!!!! i dont expect to have anything in return i don't sponge off the Government i work for a living,but when i have to work xxx amount of hours only to be taxed xxx amount more to keep someone in the country who shouldnt be here,why am i then supposed to feel humble!!!!!
So I'm supposed to feel happy about that am I!!!!!!!!!

[Livgivare]

@Equin(00)xe: I think you have to calm down your language at first. Then to the fact. Illegal immigration can be a good thing if the system is worked out so they have to earn something in return to stay. I am not for an exclution of anyone who comes into Sweden in what form he/she gets here. But sometimes I just think that we need to get our economy going and that is not to cut back on people per se. I think there is always a chance to change things arround by good politics. You see Europe is running out of people and we need people to stay prosperous. The birth-rate in most European countries are 1.2 children per mother. And to get the number of people even we need to get above 2.1 children per mother. We either get the politics running so the illegal immigrants can stay or we tell all our women to give birth to more children. I think a combination of those will make life easier. And I want all people to get a desent life and a desent job!

Love Leelene

[BnM]

"Poetic Justice"
"Reap what you sow."
"Swings & roundabouts"
"Newtons 3rd law"

Basically we get f*cked because too many of us are supporting and have supported, often indirectly, our governments
f*king of "3rd world" countrires.

[Livgivare]

"Poetic Justice"
"Reap what you sow."
"Swings & roundabouts"
"Newtons 3rd law"

Basically we get f*cked because too many of us are supporting and have supported our governments
f*king of "3rd world" countrires.

?????????????????? what did you mean with this post? I didn't get it at all?????????????????

Love Leelene

[Ronja]

In most cases Asylum seekers need not be here,We (the UK) are not the first safe country they trek across,so why do they make that elusive journey here???I'll tell you why..........because the government are too *beeping* soft to tell them to Piss off (...)

Yyy...do you really believe that something like "being too soft" exists in politic? That the reason of problems in your country are idealistic politicians with too soft hearts?
It's (nearly) all calcullation, no place for sentiments or following some principles...sometimes calcullation doesn't work and then you face problems. But making it so simple - politicians are too "polite" to say immigrants "piss off"... - that sounds naive to me.

Your post is full of emotions and I sometimes had impression that you treat me as a person who told you to shut up and be happy because of paying taxes for people who refuse to work. And that was not my point at all.

I wanted to say that world isn't just white and black - it has many other colours. Notice that I didn't argue with parts of your post pointing out that British gonvernment doesn't play fair, I "got at you" because of using word "hate" and putting all immigrants into one category: lazy_unemployed_*beep*_who_are_just_waiting_to_earn_on_your_hard_work.


@ Bangers n mash - I didn't get your post too. Could you say what you exactly mean?

[GeeJee]

and youths leaving or planning to live country just after finishing studies or even after passing high-school exams.

Including you, right?

@Noyau: I don't think French people are cold, not at all. OK, they are individualistic, but that's usual in a big city like Paris. But in general I learned that Parisians too, are very nice and friendly people. The girls seem to have a great great sense for fashion, although they do smell like grandmah's parfume... ... as for the guys - I don't know... The food is excellent, except for the cheese indeed, it tastes like garbage and gets me a headache straight away. At least, most of it. And I like the french landscape and architecture too, so it's not that bad, monsieur! Oh- and most people do speak english quite well in Paris, you just have to pick the right person if you want to ask something

And if I were in the situation with the mexican lady as Ronja described, I would ask if he wanted me to put l'argent into his nose

[Ronja]

and youths leaving or planning to live country just after finishing studies or even after passing high-school exams.

Including you, right?

Yeah, my biggest dream is to leave Poland and go to Britain to live for Equin(00)xe's taxes during the rest of my life...but psssssttt...that must stay beetween us

And seriously...well, I don't know if its'n dangerous now to say this honestly ...yeah, emmigration is the thing which can happen in my life (although Dutch balconies seems to be nicer place than Britain ), but I want first to have some qualfications - so finish study at a good university here (if I'll have chance to go abroad during studies as a part of the "Socrates-Erasmus" programme, why not, but rather to show other countries than my own, not to stay there). After studies I'm going to look for the job in Poland first (saying job - I mean something I learned to do, as I would like to work during studies also). If the only alternative would be working from the morning to the night I'll probably think deeply about looking for luck somewhere else. I would also like to see the world, learn new cultures, get new experiences, so....

To be clear - what interests me is work. I would like not to worry about money when being an adult and to realize some of my mother's dreams (like flying by plane) that she couldn't have realized because of lack of money (I have two brothers and sister and my mum is a person who always has put her needs after ours).

Am I a candidate to lynch...?

And if I were in the situation with the mexican lady as Ronja described, I would ask if he wanted me to put l'argent into his nose

I'll remember this advice, maybe it'll become useful once day...to put l'argent in his nose...to put l'argent in his nose...

[AnDrOiD]

America: Ignorants. (more truth than stereotype)
Britain: Bullies.
France: Snobs.
Sweden: Drunkards.
Norway: Weirdos.
Germany: Sausage Eaters.
Finland: Knife Wearers.
Martians: Green.