Welcome to the new BlahBlahCafe!

Having trouble registering? You can contact us at the "Contact us" link at the bottom of the page.

The boards have been moved to a new server. If you have trouble signing in, or other problems on the boards, feel free to contact us.

All boards have been restored for Guests now.

Music recordings


Post Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:25 pm
jeremy


User avatar
Posts: 261
Location: Tournai, Belgium

Synthesist wrote:If you used analog synthesizers for instance, did you want to remove all the cool stuff showing it's alive they bring along with it's sound?


Maybe I don't express precisly what I am talking about, because it seems you don't understand what I mean :wink:
I would be bothered if the synth goes out of tune, but if it behaves just a bit randomly without being distracting, it's ok.

If you could point to the technical points that make you say you don't like the clean production, it would be clearer, I admit :wink:

What I hear today is not a production that is too clean, but it's just bad songs, crap lyrics, blunt and boring musicianship, etc. etc. (James Blunt deserves his name lol... this guy sucks, it's terrible... he could use digital technology or old tapes I wouldn't care more about such crappy "music", and he's just one example among hundreds of others).

I'd like to understand what you mean, though. So tell me, what are you talking about exactly? You mentionned "funny details"? What's that? :wink:

And we're talking production here, not synthesizers.
Post Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:42 am
AMR


User avatar
Posts: 188
Location: Lisbon, Portugal - mostly...

Pete wrote:
AMR wrote:Are you referring to the sampler that sampled the analog sound or to the original master? For what I know Zoolook was the first album JMJ did completely digital, from the multitrack to the master (I also remember a 1994 interview in which he complained a bit about that)
\edit: to me zoolook sound digitally clean but not harsh (!)

P.
Perhaps the way I said it made you think that, what I ment was (translated):

"the "shivering" the digital sampling caught from the analog master"

Please read "analog master" as Jean Michel Jarre and not the master tape. :-D He placed warmth into it (well, he and another genious at his own art, Frederick Rosseau).

Still, the samplers of those times were not as "clean" as is computer generated sound. The early Farilight and Emulator have a poetic aliasing hiss and "tape noise" about'em and analog outputs (the VST don't have analog outputs, if you get my drift).

And BTW, by "transients" I mean micro-variations that are always occurring in a sound wave.

For me, and I've said it often, I see "analog" tapes, or direct to tape recording just like any other "effect", and this one brings warmth (when saturated), just like tubes give you a round sound and so on... and software CAN emulate PERFECTLY all this if you know what you are doing, are very experienced and devote it a lot of time to give it those almost unoticeable nuances that make the diference.

Kind Regards,
AMR
http://www.alvaromrocha.com
Post Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:47 pm
Velodynamic


User avatar
Posts: 3472
Location: Sweden, far north
Likes given: 1
Likes received  : 9

I think the recordings are different depending on wich artist made it, what media you're listening to, wich format, wich equipments the listener is using...etc, etc.
If you're listening to radio there is noise reducers and many things going on in the tuner before the sound reach the ears. We have different speakers, players, head or ear phones. I'm not even going to mention all the super compressed media files going on over the internet. I'm listening to it all...no question about it. But where and with what have I actually heard the "correct" information or recording??
I am pretty satisfied with how most of the music is produced, but I'm deadly tired of compact disc as the main music format. There we have a real music destroyer...every musician use this "limitation" and still there is few musicians to find on other formats. HDCD is allmost dead, but where are all the "new" formats? Is it not easier to add defects to a perfection than vice versa? Or is the key maybe to make a perfect defect?
"The worst thing in any form of art is to be betrayed by your own habits."
- JEAN MICHEL JARRE
Post Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:30 pm
Equinoxe


User avatar
Posts: 871
Location: "Between the Satellites"
Likes received  : 1

Velodynamic wrote: I am pretty satisfied with how most of the music is produced, but I'm deadly tired of compact disc as the main music format. There we have a real music destroyer...every musician use this "limitation" and still there is few musicians to find on other formats. HDCD is allmost dead, but where are all the "new" formats? Is it not easier to add defects to a perfection than vice versa? Or is the key maybe to make a perfect defect?
CD's are the mainstream because everyone more or less has access to a CD player,Cds have become like Vinyl in the 70s and then Analog Cassettes through the 80s,now you never see Cassettes,and only Vinyls on special released formats,vinyl was said to become obsolete due to CDs,but having collected near 2000 Records over my time and still buying them(second hand and new)find until they revolutionise the DJ format vinyl will never be fully wiped out,there just is no alternative to Spinning a Vinyl on a technics SL1200/1210,although Technics now have the CDJ a cd turntable for alternative DJs,the SLs will never die,so as long as they keep making them ,then there will always be a calling for vinyls.

for me the comparision to using Technics SL1200/1210 to CDJ equivalants is like the Analog Synth interface comparision to a digital Menu option....whilst they both complete the same task,you have a more organic approach with Vinyl players.



On the CD format this again will be like the Vinyl in that it is slowly but surely being replaced by Mp3 players and the like,but will never be lost as a format its just too important to be wiped out,,whilst i love the CD, i like nothing more than carrying around my Whole CD collection(some 400) in my 20Gb Ipod,beat that for convenience...I could just imagine the Wheelbarrow i would have to carry around full of the CDs i own for the same access to them!!!!!!!!

Again sites like Itunes are slowly but surely replacing the CD format,but it will never be replaced totally as with Vinyl there will always be a demand for it by collectors....
In this day and age you would think little if any vinyl was released with new recordings,but many labels are now repressing older LPs/12" because there is such a demand for it..but this is of the older generation,most people growing up now will never understand anything other than MP3 players/Media Players

Until there is a mass calling for it SACD and other polished formats will only be released for financial reasons,not everyone has the Access to all the equipment needed to fully appreciatte it,but in 10 or so years time it will probably be the norm,due to the technology becoming cheaper to buy so much so it would be the same as buying a CD player nowadays

I like the way that Jarre released AERO in 5:1 to be a revolutionary artist paving the way for new formats in musical release,but yet it was more or less unnoticied by all but real fans,In years to come people will look back at it and realise how great it was,but until people start taking advantage of the equipment when prices hit rockbottom due to being superceded by newer technology it wont take off with other artists,its just too big a risk as your already alienated to an audience that has the equipment,which would be far smaller than those people who don't the CD version included in the AERO album shows that whilst it caters for Surround,it also caters for standard CD players to stop being limited to a given listener...

You got to remember CDs and Vinyl have been around for a long time,it to me is a format that will take a very long time to faze out...unlike cassettes.MP3 players give you better easier access to tracks and quicker,but it still has it limitations like everything else.
Post Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:22 pm
Velodynamic


User avatar
Posts: 3472
Location: Sweden, far north
Likes given: 1
Likes received  : 9

Equin(00)xe wrote: for me the comparision to using Technics SL1200/1210 to CDJ equivalants is like the Analog Synth interface comparision to a digital Menu option....whilst they both complete the same task,you have a more organic approach with Vinyl players.

On the CD format this again will be like the Vinyl in that it is slowly but surely being replaced by Mp3 players and the like,but will never be lost as a format its just too important to be wiped out,,whilst i love the CD, i like nothing more than carrying around my Whole CD collection(some 400) in my 20Gb Ipod,beat that for convenience...I could just imagine the Wheelbarrow i would have to carry around full of the CDs i own for the same access to them!!!!!!!!

Again sites like Itunes are slowly but surely replacing the CD format,but it will never be replaced totally as with Vinyl there will always be a demand for it by collectors....
In this day and age you would think little if any vinyl was released with new recordings,but many labels are now repressing older LPs/12" because there is such a demand for it..but this is of the older generation,most people growing up now will never understand anything other than MP3 players/Media Players

Until there is a mass calling for it SACD and other polished formats will only be released for financial reasons,not everyone has the Access to all the equipment needed to fully appreciatte it,but in 10 or so years time it will probably be the norm,due to the technology becoming cheaper to buy so much so it would be the same as buying a CD player nowadays

I like the way that Jarre released AERO in 5:1 to be a revolutionary artist paving the way for new formats in musical release,but yet it was more or less unnoticied by all but real fans,In years to come people will look back at it and realise how great it was,but until people start taking advantage of the equipment when prices hit rockbottom due to being superceded by newer technology it wont take off with other artists,its just too big a risk as your already alienated to an audience that has the equipment,which would be far smaller than those people who don't the CD version included in the AERO album shows that whilst it caters for Surround,it also caters for standard CD players to stop being limited to a given listener...

You got to remember CDs and Vinyl have been around for a long time,it to me is a format that will take a very long time to faze out...unlike cassettes.MP3 players give you better easier access to tracks and quicker,but it still has it limitations like everything else.
Yes, you are right...I allmost forgot it's more than fiftheen years ago since I bought my first CD album (sounds awefully today). At that time all you had as serious comparisons was the cassette tape or the vinyl LP. Some of us bought DAT tape- and Mini Disc-players and strongly
belived in it as the way of the future. I payed a tribute to the CD because the tweeters in my home stereo speakers was so bad that they made everything sound "hard and sharp". A bit different today as the speakers are getting better and better to a lower cost and are revealing all the small details of the music medium allthough in a smother way...
-You're beginning to hear the small differences.

The Mp3's, iTune files a.s.o. are fantastic when you want music fast and easily and infact they sound so much better today than just for a few years ago. But still they makes me feel a little "robbed" of the small shades and tiny details in the sound, maybe just because of the thought that some software has desided for me what sounds like noise and deleted that part of the information from the recording to be able to squeeze in all the information into that tiny little mp3 file. The result is very clean and sterilized.
To me that is a loss of the total sound quality, the freedom for me as a listener to judge the recording at all is stolen. That's why I think that the prices of legal "pay to download" files has to be even lower or become as complete as CD/SACD/DVD-A. tracks.

The vinyl still is outstanding when it comes to sound quality vs. the time of storage if you only give it time for the right care and have the right equipment for it. I remember from an interview with the producer to ABBA -Michael B. Tretov. He said he had a living hell in the end of the 70's, trying to make the vinyl LP recording sounding somewhat like the master tape. He even had to invent some own tools to get close to the original tracks. So I guess the truth behind the correct sound quality is vary a lot depending on whom might be asked. :wink:
Post Posted Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:45 am
LeoDaV


Posts: 259

Ok..... it's time for me to throw in my 5 cents...

I think that the difference between the sound an instrument produces and the sound when it reaches it's final destination (the intended listner's ear) should be zero. No loss at all. This includes the noise an instrument makes!

However we, the musicians, have to use some sort of transportation: the different mediums like Reel to Reel tape, LP, Casssette, DAT, Minidisc, CD, SACD, DVD. They all have their own 'good/bad' characteristics. This also raises an extra problem: the listner should be able to use the same medium you used.

I have learned that all forms of recording give the sound you recorded something extra and some loss. The problem is that there is no available technology that gives you back exactly what you want. Some might argue digital does... no it does not! It chops up the sound and levels a timeperiod. So, information is lost and when played back you get unwanted extra harmonics due to the squair levels. Fortunately (or should I say shame?) the majority does not hear this.

So, we have to face it... your music will be tainted when it reaches the ear of your listner. We just have to live with that...

The loss/adding of information becomes part of your composition. For instance Oxygene is quite dark in terms of frequency. Some say "no, it was done on purpouse"..No Sir, it was the recording equipment that removed the high frequencys and gave the extra noise! Any 310 owner can prove that quite easely. This type of loss/adding of information is called "character". I even know some who are looking for this typical Oxygene "character" so that they can use it again in their recordings.

This is also one of the reasons Jarre listens to his own work on some old radioset. I prefer to use my car for that purpouse. The way it sounds there IS your composition... perhaps not exactly you wanted it to be but it is...

So, we can brag all we want about different formats and recording equipment but it just won't help....keeping in mind the adding/loss of information does....

J.
Post Posted Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:13 am
BnM


User avatar
Posts: 570

The word Pneumonia
When speaking who cares if you know how to spell it right
so long as it is pronounced correctly and sounds right.

Music Compositon can be considered similarly.

Capturing what is essentially excellent music, with the "right" instrument/s is the matter.
This, unless inspired, is hard to do.

The technical details of audio engineering, how it sounds on digital media
can be "fixed" by any competent audio engineer.







  • 2020 Zoolook.nl
    Powered by phpBB forum software