Blah Blah Cafe, the Jean-Michel Jarre forum

[Velodynamic]

Early mornings pisses me off, allthough I have to deal with it every working day.
I'm NOT a morning person.

[Feffeli]

My view on the parenting-license thing:

Just because you can copulate and produce a child doesn't mean that you arefit and worthy to be a parent.

Being unable to produce a child [as in homosexual relationships, infertility, etc.] does not make you unfit to raise one.

[Ronja]

Interesting discussion...I even thought about making a single thread "Parenting-license...?", but as there is also some discussion about being a teetotaller I decided not to split it, so I'll write my view here

I think I understand Leelene's point...you need to have license to drive, a license to be a professional translator, to be... (<--just think) but you need no license to have a child. Of course it's not the point in controlling people to disallow some of them having a baby (although I sometimes think if I could it wouldn't be a bad idea... )...it's impossible...just it's so sad that tyhere're so many children treated badly

I especially find the situation in Poland worrying. I sometimes have an impression that people there don't see connections between how a child has been brought up and who he/she becomes in the future.

Just an example...some time ago people tried to lynch the murderer of nine years-old boy while police were escorting him to court...don't misunderstand me, probably if I was a mother of this child I'd like him to be killed or something (to be clear - I'm against death penalty, but people often change their minds in such situations)...but my first question was: where are all these people when they hear neighbours' children beaten? What do they these from pathological families?

There were so many cases of babies...even killed by their f*** parents and when journalists were asking neighbours why didn't they react they just said things like "Oh, I thought he was hungry and that's the reason why he was crying..." I'm just sick of hearing about such things...

People want the police to have right to be brutal when solving problems with young hooligans...they want courts to be more strict...but tell me, how much sense does it have if policemen there can't even protect the child from the drunk father?
And courts hate to involve in families' affairs...

That all is really worrying me...

[Livgivare]

I think I am missunderstood a bit here. I am not saying that as an adult with a bad background that you can be lazy and not work with it. I am just saying that alot of things could be prevented and alot of people could be better of if there was some guidence along the way. Not like a parenting-police or any sort of maffia-like treatment. But just a little tiny help when needed. And that you do have a great knowledge from the start of parentinghood. Knowing of different kinds of way to bring up a child and what is a good way of solving things is not wrong to know.

Love Leelene

[Ronja]

I am not saying that as an adult with a bad background that you can be lazy and not work with it. I am just saying that alot of things could be prevented and alot of people could be better of if there was some guidence along the way.

Nor am I!

I just tried to said that preventing is better than curing the results...and in my country that's really a problem now.

[Jett Moonwing]

I was awoken at 5:30 this morning by the biggest wasp I have ever seen...funny thing is, I didn't even have my window open last night...

Also, my CD player has just skipped Equinoxe 3. Probably because of the scratches on my MP3 disc. I guess my friend's parents didn't take very good care of it...

[Equinoxe]

I think I am missunderstood a bit here. I am not saying that as an adult with a bad background that you can be lazy and not work with it. I am just saying that alot of things could be prevented and alot of people could be better of if there was some guidence along the way. Not like a parenting-police or any sort of maffia-like treatment. But just a little tiny help when needed. And that you do have a great knowledge from the start of parentinghood. Knowing of different kinds of way to bring up a child and what is a good way of solving things is not wrong to know.

Love Leelene

I can see from these moralistic replies that neither you or Ronja are parents......

Until you hae become one,you can never fully understand the total fallacy of your opinions...

License to drive,license to own a gun......License to become a parent?????.....

if it was so institutionalised then you could educate immature adolescents to to understand the errors and flaws of falling pregnant at such a ridiculous age,and change the course of humanity!!!!


How do you actually make a guideline to being a parent,you cant set out a damn test,but the test would never be conclusive.

Children never stop developing and parents never fully educate their kids even when they become intellectual minds themselves,


I studied Psychology and sociology for 4 years at uni,yet there were never any conclusive answers to systematic abuse in children and whether the detrimental effects of bad parenting made them into abusers themselves,If that was so,you could actually predict children who would becoming murderers.rapists etc,the simple fact is you cant,systematic abuse from torment or ill treating in your immature years have no direct link with premiditation murders,most act on impulse and a lot of murders are commited unmeditated,suicide is the closest link to systematic abuse,and is a slow process of self harm that build up over time,covertly diseased by Mind power,nothing more.....


Unless you know when to ask for help you cant be assisted,you can only learn skills once you are doing the job it only becomes clear when you take the task in hand,you cant link past events with how well you will succeed in being a good guardian


I would read more about Psychological matters before you assess how people will turn out,everyone is unique,even those who are demonised...

If you sat in a room all your life with no contact of the outside world would that make you insane,probably not,would being harmed by lack of social skills make you any less afraid of making friends,probably not......
so how does lack of support in your upbringing coincide with future education and the link between right and wrong situations....


You will find very little connection with bad upbringing and crimes.if so how are most crimes Impulsive..


Society in general and pecking orders within that society breed contempt and lack of discipline,you can take 10 families 5 with both parent units and 5 as single parent units,inevitably you would think that both parent families would turn out the best children and in an ideal world probably would,but status dictates that education is only offered in the best circumstance due to your status in society,not how much discipline is injected by parental numbers..
Single parent families do not breed worse children through lack of united guardians,its the status of their position in society which does.

[Equinoxe]

Just an example...some time ago people tried to lynch the murderer of nine years-old boy while police were escorting him to court...don't misunderstand me, probably if I was a mother of this child I'd like him to be killed or something (to be clear - I'm against death penalty, but people often change their minds in such situations)...but my first question was: where are all these people when they hear neighbours' children beaten? What do they these from pathological families?

That all is really worrying me...

That is the natural reaction to such a situation,but where would this lead to?????

the murderous boy would be murdered in revenge by the Victims mother,who would then be murdered by the vengeful killed boys father who would be then murdered by the resentful siblings of this person etc etc....

there are no answers...

by these sentiments everyone is as guilty as the next person,Acts of murder are not out of context its the process of what drives someone to do such a crime,we all have the potential to kill someone,its the psychological build up which drives it that so hard to understand..

How can a child of such a young age blame past events!!!He would hardly have developed such a mentality to drive him on let alone follow through with such drastic consequences,nor would having a father figure to guide or disicpline him have prevented it.
its society's mentality that breeds such evil people not lack of discipline,take a look all around you,nowadays you can talk all over the world to different people around the globe yet when it comes to our own integration in society,we rarely have time of day for our neighbours...

You can talk to people via the Internet on the otherside of the world,but the situation in which this is possible means that we are so isolated in real world terms.How is it that you can sit in the comfort of your home and talk to someone thousands of miles away,but yet we have the art of communication on our doorstep yet rarely use it

[Finaero]

Right at the moment, the hugeass amount of homework I have now after my 6 day NYC trip

[Ronja]

Equin(00)xe...now I feel bit misunderstood...for me words "It's sad that there's no parenting-license" means nothing more than "it's sad that some people who NEVER should have children (and who even HAVEN"T wanted to have any) bring up some". I'm not saying about controollin anybody, it's ridicoulus...

And there's a HUGE difference between mistakes that every parent does, because it's natural that you learn during all child's life to be a parent, and mistakes, which make children not allowed to live normally, which takes them chance from the start.

There is a sentence: "Nobody had happy childhood" (I think it's some psychologist's sentence)...everyone can find mistakes of his parents, but there're mistakes and MISTAKES.

Tell me...would you sign the sentence "everybody should be a parent"? I wouldn't. But I have consciousness that from biological point of view nearly everybody can That is sad.


Referring to this case of murder...I totally agree that it'd lead to anything, I was just saying that my first instict as a mother would probably be to kill him. Which I didn't say is good.

But what I was really trying to say is that I noticed that many people here, in Poland, don't see any connections between someone's childhood and who he becomes later. I ment...take this murderer, who, according to what I believe in, couldn't be a normal, happy person (normal happy people don't kill). Probably (it's just an example there might not be the only reason) he was grown up brought up by father-alcoholic (alcoholism is a big problem here, where I live). For, let's say, 15 years of his life, nearly day by day, he was watching his drunk father beating his mother. (I'm not saying that every brutal alcoholics' child becomes a murder, not at all, just try to show probable reason of someone's problems with psychic).

My question was: do people, who watch such situations and do anything (and that's how many peole act, there's a stupid thinking that "these're family affairs") have moral right to lynch this murderer?

I have impression that in Poland there's lot of talking about young hooligans, about criminalists in general and so on, but no discussion about situation in families. People try to deal the results without knowing the reasons.

And believe me, it doesn't all look like in UK or Sweden - this country is even shown by journalist as the place where children are treated the best in Europe. Here's is still thinking that "family is saint", that "people shouldn't talk in public about family's problems"...it's changing but we still have to learn much.

[AnDrOiD]

I hate reading long essays.

[Jakob BC]

I hate reading long essays.

Like above?

[Equinoxe]

Equin(00)xe...now I feel bit misunderstood...for me words "It's sad that there's no parenting-license" means nothing more than "it's sad that some people who NEVER should have children (and who even HAVEN"T wanted to have any) bring up some". I'm not saying about controollin anybody, it's ridicoulus...

Yes sure,It's not a right its a privilige,inevtiably there are people who in certain terms ,should not be allowed to bring up children,yet dont fully appreciatte how blessed they are to have that ability,whilst there are others who have not been given that privilige through natural conception or biological issues,who would probably make excellent parents but who have a lifetime of heartache not being able to feel so,but that wouldn't make the slight bit of difference if it was due to a selection process based on mental ability.

And there's a HUGE difference between mistakes that every parent does, because it's natural that you learn during all child's life to be a parent, and mistakes, which make children not allowed to live normally, which takes them chance from the start

But how do you prevent either???sometimes even the most unlikely cases of family units suffer psychological issues that could scar.
How do you allow one person to live,by a guiding set of rules by allowing them to "earn the right" to parenting by license??
I do agree in that there are certain criteria that should be applied,but you cant really draw the line until you are put in that situation.
Children who have a loving family home and damn good parents can still turn out to be "Angered" or revengeful,even if a parent has the License,are they then considered bad parents because a close family member or family friend sexually abused their child truning them into a monster later in life who goes on to repeat the cycle of emotional trauma dealt to them. Having a license would not prevent that!!!

There is a sentence: "Nobody had happy childhood" (I think it's some psychologist's sentence)...everyone can find mistakes of his parents, but there're mistakes and MISTAKES.

What defines a happy childhood???
A person could punish there child for one mistake but in every other sense of the word loved that child unconditionally but that could scar them for life,turn them into a serial rapist of murderer,someone who didnt punish there child,could turn out a dictator,again its a subjective thing

In retrospective terms i agree there are parenting mistakes and their are Mistakes that cause psychological damage which could have been prevented.(beating child etc etc)
Having the right to earn a driving license doesn't mean that you are a good driver,and earning that License through showing you can control a car doesnt also mean that later on in life you wont go on to be a maniac driving intent on killing other road users,how would you feel if your Test examiner said,"Ok you've failed your test because i feel you look like you could become an irratic driver at times"

the same could apply to a License to become a parent....some could earn the license to raise a child but would that stop certain people turning out how they do...you can't curb society that way.

Look at the disarray Iraq is in now after the US tried to liberate it....the country was so oppressed by SH that people were unable to cope without his reign.it was like being a wild animal to most of them who felt they were caged by his dicatatorship,now there let out there unable to function,a curbed society only builds up resentment to the point they no longer can think for themselves

Referring to this case of murder...I totally agree that it'd lead to anything, I was just saying that my first instict as a mother would probably be to kill him. Which I didn't say is good.

Sure it is,that would be my first reaction if indeed anyone harmed my child,but were all someones "Son or Daughter" when does its start becoming Justified to act this way.

But what I was really trying to say is that I noticed that many people here, in Poland, don't see any connections between someone's childhood and who he becomes later. I ment...take this murderer, who, according to what I believe in, couldn't be a normal, happy person (normal happy people don't kill). Probably (it's just an example there might not be the only reason) he was grown up brought up by father-alcoholic (alcoholism is a big problem here, where I live). For, let's say, 15 years of his life, nearly day by day, he was watching his drunk father beating his mother. (I'm not saying that every brutal alcoholics' child becomes a murder, not at all, just try to show probable reason of someone's problems with psychic).

At such a Young age sometimes its hard to accept that perhaps this particular boy was "mentally developed" enough to murder yet still seen in society to be seen Immature enough to not understand his actions,those sorts of cases are rare,most impulsive situations of murder are not connected with systematic,or psychological trauma at such a young age,its true that maybe this boy had been influenced or scarred by his fathers actions,but i hardly think it was a timebomb waiting to go off,this young boy would hardly have been able to calculate or be aware of his emotional state to really understand the principle of his actions,but that doesnt mean its any less a reason to do it,it could have been prevented ,but again how can you predict it.but you could see it as a connection between his own trauma and why his murdered,that is always the first correlation.

My question was: do people, who watch such situations and do anything (and that's how many peole act, there's a stupid thinking that "these're family affairs") have moral right to lynch this murderer?

Most of society have unpure thoughts,its like child abusers,people are not disgusted at the act its the Moral overstepping of the urge to pursue such henous crimes.sex is not an unpure action its a natural action its the action with whom it is participated in.
In the UK there has just been in the news about a girl of 11 being the youngest to ever become pregnant,the guy she had sex with is 15,yet in real world terms he should be prosecuted for what i would class as an act of sexual abuse,sure the girl is maybe old enough to fully be aware of her actions and this male should be even more so,but in my eyes its a form of abuse that should be dealt with accordingly.

And believe me, it doesn't all look like in UK or Sweden - this country is even shown by journalist as the place where children are treated the best in Europe. Here's is still thinking that "family is saint", that "people shouldn't talk in public about family's problems"...it's changing but we still have to learn much.

we all have.Sometimes talking in Public is not a bad thing but it helps to ease the burden of unrest,Its hard to accept certain things,and by ignoring it ,maybe feel that we are all dealing with it.....but at the same time its good to try understand why perhaps it so that things happen.
Ignorance will only drive the root of the problem further and much more severity will gather with it..



Another Long thread for you to read Android!!!!!!!!

[AnDrOiD]

I hate reading long essays.

Like above?

Exactly!

[Ronja]

But how do you prevent either???sometimes even the most unlikely cases of family units suffer psychological issues that could scar.
How do you allow one person to live,by a guiding set of rules by allowing them to "earn the right" to parenting by license??

You're stubborn to use the word "license" As I've written I didn't mean sitauation when some clerks test people and saing "you can be parent", you "can't be"...it's some sort of utopia which I don't want.
I totally agree that nobody can predict what parent the person wil be before he/she really becomes a father/mother. Sometimes life can be very suprising and people said to be irresponisible and without ability to contact with children are wonderful parents - or on the contrary.

Children who have a loving family home and damn good parents can still turn out to be "Angered" or revengeful,even if a parent has the License,are they then considered bad parents because a close family member or family friend sexually abused their child truning them into a monster later in life who goes on to repeat the cycle of emotional trauma dealt to them. Having a license would not prevent that!!!

Sure. And that's what teases me...

What defines a happy childhood???

The sentence I've written ("nobody had happy childhood") is a little bit tricky.
For me it means that every single person could find his.her parents' mistakes. It's good to have awareness of these mistakes to cope with eventual results. People who don't remember any bad situations from childhood probably just keep it somewhere deep, which isn't very healthy.
I don't understand it as "everybody had unhappy childhood". It'd be absurdal.

A person could punish there child for one mistake but in every other sense of the word loved that child unconditionally but that could scar them for life,turn them into a serial rapist of murderer,someone who didnt punish there child,could turn out a dictator,again its a subjective thing

True

the same could apply to a License to become a parent....some could earn the license to raise a child but would that stop certain people turning out how they do...you can't curb society that way.

Yeah, I agree-->first sentence of this post

At such a Young age sometimes its hard to accept that perhaps this particular boy was "mentally developed" enough to murder yet still seen in society to be seen Immature enough to not understand his actions,those sorts of cases are rare,most impulsive situations of murder are not connected with systematic,or psychological trauma at such a young age,its true that maybe this boy had been influenced or scarred by his fathers actions,but i hardly think it was a timebomb waiting to go off,this young boy would hardly have been able to calculate or be aware of his emotional state to really understand the principle of his actions,but that doesnt mean its any less a reason to do it,it could have been prevented ,but again how can you predict it.but you could see it as a connection between his own trauma and why his murdered,that is always the first correlation.

But the murderer wasn't a teenager or a child..the victim was 9 year-old boy, but he was killed by an adult.

Ignorance will only drive the root of the problem further and much more severity will gather with it..

Yeah, that's what I feel.


What's funny with these long essays we' ve both written...I agree with most of your points. I think that the word "license" made us problems to understand each other, as I didn't use it literally.
I also still have problems to express precisely what I think in English